Usually, mechanics charge around $200 for conversion. The problem with not being an expert is that you don't know what is important and what's not. What is the refrigerant property involved that has caused this? You either get a system that will function well with R1234yf or get any other type. The good thing is that after you convert to R134 you can top off the system easily and cheaply. ambulance tailgate conversion Like say half a can or so recharge come springtime warm weather or something. -------------------------"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." Low refrigerating effect per pound: In comparison to other refrigerants, the refrigerating effect of R12 per pound is low. Therefore, its most suitable for both commercial and domestic environments. . Since you will be using less R134a than R12 you do not want to rely on the driers site glass to determine if the system is full. That is for the compressor, drier, expansion valve and condenser. had writing on the side that said R134a. It didn't seem too dirty though - I don't think it is the problem, but I could be wrong. The cable is adjustable at the valve arm. Please enter the name by which you would like to log-in and be known on this site. $21 . For those of you who are considering what the cost is for R12 you can think of it this way: Dont go out to dinner this weekend. A/C Expansion Valve Replacement Cost. R134a compressors are substituted as new to retrofit the R12 system compressor part numbers with different height sealing washers. R-134a XV for R-134a use. The common problem when converting from R12 to R134a is lack of knowledge or equipment. If you have 10 ounces of oil in the system, that is contributing to the poor performance as well. The condensor airflow drops off as the fan clutch dies slowly. However, it was found to be a very bad gas for the environment. R12 can move more heat than r134 so when it isn't very hot and the system isn't maxed out you wont be able to tell the difference but when its 110 out and the inside is 140 R12 will cool the cabin temp faster. Is there more info needed?THanks -------------------------1983 Mercedes 240D on R12 and WVO!1192 Mercedes 300D 2.5 R134a1993 Toyota Pickup converted to R134a, Paul:I had to dig a bit deeper - MB made several running changes in the 1983 123'sThere are actually 4 different circuit diagrams for the A/C system that year - just for your 123.123 I found the R4 reference, and it should have 170 Ml of oil in the system.Your aux fan should run at the ambients you listed. The approval is very legal one, governed by the U.S. EPA. R134a refrigerant fittings are different size. R-12 to R-134a Conversion. Is it exponential, squared? But as there's not a big difference, people say you can suffice with either. The general practice of charging the system with 15% less refrigerant adds to the thermal deficiency of R134a. Make sure to wear safety gloves, goggles, and shoes when theres a possibility of exposure to the chemical (R134a). Given two identical vehicles, each with the same weighted amount of refrigerant, the vehicle with the R134a has the capability to remove more heat (measured in btus) from the vehicle than the same type of vehicle using the same amount of R12. The ozone depletion potential of a chemical is a factor that shows the level of degradation itll cause to the ozone layer that surrounds and secures the earth from harmful radiation. . Later model cars that come with 134A will have 134A only connectors. Generally this works well for the whole system. Here are the basics for converting a system that does not have a charge of R12, its empty. 5. You may need to adjust the valve in a bit to get desired superheat. Remember, being aluminum, they lower the temps better, and do not pass off as much heat to the radiator, which then makes it's job easier and lowers underhood temps (besides lowering vent temps inside the car). Hot coolant migrates up through the core by convection (is that the word? Break out the new gauges and measure hi and lo at 1500rpm, and do the Merc FSM test to see how we're doing performance wise. . If there is a resource I should read first to save you time, let me know. R12 was once used in many air conditioning units as a refrigerant or cooling agent. If you have a York, and it is equipped with service valves, you can check & adjust the oil level without discharging the system. I put in a new (not reman) compressor (R4 I believe it is) in my merc 240D, new drier, new expansion valve, new o-rings, nylog. Then again, there are two different expansion valves. Consider using the newer valve, even with 134a stamped on the valve. This drop can affect energy consumption since the plant will operate for a longer period or a larger plant will have to be installed. Crap! However, R12 refrigerants are still used as fire retardants in aircraft and submarines. Please enter a valid email address for yourself. It is usually sold under the brand name, Freon 12. Welcome to rxmechanic.com. I had a pair on my SAAB that seemed ok - but new ones ran 20% faster!Your best clue to airflow issues is a 60 mph test. Expansion Valve for R134a? | Team Chevelle difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve Since the hose is the stock hose, you cannot tell what refrigerant is inside. ~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446. The system will be checked for gross leaks while under vacuum. Reattach the hose lines using new R134a compatible o-rings, lightly lubricate with compressor oil. RULES for AOP - Owner Assistance and Contractors, Energy Efficiency and Building Performance Discussion NEW, Carnak Zone/Locked Areas - For Professional Member Only, How To Become a Pro and Rules For Pro Members, Pro Forum: Refrigerants and EPA regulations **NEW, Pro Forum: Residential Refrigeration and Appliances **NEW, Pro Forum: Equipment Recalls and Bulletins **NEW, Pro's Forum: Building Science Discussions, Educational Forums - Open for all in the industry, Welcome to HVAC-Talk's Educational Forums, How to Submit Links, Articles and Quiz Questions, Frequently Asked Questions About Submissions, Physics, Thermodynamics, Fluid Flow and Combustion, Educational, Training & Reference Information, Manufacturer's Technical Information Links, Electrical Theory, Circuits and Electronics, HVACR Equipment, Components & Accessories, Accessories Humidifiers, Air Cleaners, HRUs, Fans, Filters, etc. However, take note that R134a refrigerants are manufactured specifically for automotive air conditioners. Additionally, R134a was introduced as a replacement for R22 and R12 in high and medium-temperature refrigeration systems like domestic and commercial chillers. I used a full can of evap cleaner. Large temperature difference between expansion valve inlet and outlet oReplace expansion valve Air . I don't have the FSM matrix handy for that 123.123, but a 123.133 shows a test rpm of 2,000 - and vent temps between 54f & 66f at 91f to 95f ambient. difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve When the ambient air temps get above 80F the gauge readings can run a bit higher on the high side and lower on the low side when using R134a. don't know enough about the subject to explain the choices.However, a few days ago I called the dealer to see about an OEM TEV and they said something that made me feel a little bit better; the same part number superceded every application back to the '60s, and that they couldn't do that without engineering signing off on it.Still, I would feel a lot better if I could see something written officially that compared the flow characteristics and performance of r12 and 134a TEVs are concluded that they were interchangeable in automotive applications.If someone knows of such a document I would sleep much better!Walt Edited: Mon September 12, 2005 at 8:13 PM by wamcneil. Unfortunately, the oil only mixes with the refrigerant as a liquid. Helical and Serpentine coils. But I don't want to waste your time. I would suggest you do stay away from R-134a since with the hot gas bypass of your system (if it is to be just as the original) extremes of temperature and pressure will be very hard on your compressor and the rest of the system. Attach the R134a charge port adaptors, there are two types.. one of which you need to remove the old R12 valve cores. The AC usually does not work at all. Also, would a genuine R12 TXV be better, or is it too marginal to worry about?I think I should do the FSM test for performance - they have a graph with ambient temp and a/c temp. difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve . Carefully study the chart and compare the following: To a large extent, the choice is up to you. Also called the orifice tube. A. Pressure/temperature table for R12, R134a, and R513A is shown in Figure 1. . The ARPA Zone/Open Membership Discussion Forums. "Jerky Locker" LMAO I am using that one in the future!Florida = BUGS! PaulJerky King -------------------------1983 Mercedes 240D on R12 and WVO!1192 Mercedes 300D 2.5 R134a1993 Toyota Pickup converted to R134a. Automotive Replacement Expansion Valves & Parts; Industrial & Scientific; Customer Reviews. Stay home and grill your own steaks and stir your own martini. For example, at an evap temp of 30 (your daughter's system is probably running around 25-28 saturated in order to give a 32 duct temp), the pressure of R-134a is 26.1psi. Its not that difficult but the procedures of evacuation, charging and testing should be done by a licensed a/c technician that is experienced with R134a and your particular car. How is the vent airflow?I would jumper the aux fan & check the performance. Also, R134a cylinders are light-blue in color. Nick, I hear you - there maybe nothing to do here. Right now you know you have a bit too much, but with a CR4P compressor this is an insurance policy. This may be the source of your oil confusion. They would then make short "jumper hoses" to connect to the existing stock hoses, refit your old fan if there is a "pusher" fan, and recharge to specs. ~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446. Safety: R134a is safe to use as its non-flammable and cant explode. Are you sure you have an R4? R1234yf. american sniper longest shot; how to adjust sunsetter awning arms; pastor jeremy roberts texas. Can I just use an adapter and save $200? Recovery & flushing is the only way out of an oil overcharge in your vehicle.B. The Wikipedia explanation for expansions valves cited in Frank's thread says that the gas inside the bulb in the metering valve is the same as the refrigerant in the system. For example, if your system originally had 36 ounces of R12 then you multiply that by .80 and you have 29 ounce of R134a. According to Wikipedia, There is such a thing as "r132a" (1,1-Dichloro-2,2-Difluoroethane), however there is no indication of it being a commercially produced refrigerant. Best for varieties of operating conditions: Its boiling point is -21.6 Celsius. With that said, I would source the TXV from another source such as NAPA just to avoid any problems. Paul:It is never a waste of my time to chat with someone that understands the problem, and wants to fix it. R134a is the most widely accepted alternative automotive refrigerant used to replace R12. Hopefully after you have read this entire page you will have enough information to determine which type of refrigerant is best for you. The aux fan seems to be working fine - it switches on occassionally. Flushed, vacuumed etc. The difference really shows up on the high side. R134a systems operate at higher discharge-side pressures than R12, which can cause compressor seals to leak. The only difference I can imagine would be the recharge connection. Can I use the one for the R-12? Rich Membership Chairman Using R134a in an R12 system will cause the oil not to move with the refrigerant, causing a system failure and probably won't even cool the system well, if at all. Depending on which circuit diagram fits your car (cough, no vin list exists) you have either one or two switches controlling the aux fan. R12 is otherwise called dichlorodifluoromethane is a colorless gas (chlorofluorocarbon halomethane (CPC) that is used as an aerosol spray propellant and a refrigerant, and is soluble in organic solvents. But, if your car lacks enough condenser and you have many 100+ degree days then you may want to stick either increase air flow, add another condenser as we mentioned in The Mr. Ice Project or stick with R12. 4 Stars & Up & Up; 3 Stars & Up & Up; 2 Stars & Up . Questions About Becoming A Professional Member? It is common for eurocar threads to go multiple pages, and as Nick points out - sometimes cool is all you will ever get. Safe but sorry! I found that in the..Maxposition on the control it will have the compressor running all the time. They can be mounted quite easy,and there is a mounting kit that helps to hang it. We mention using ester type refrigerant oil. difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve. I had a 1991 BMW switched to 134a by just changing the low pressure charging valve, flushing and refilling with 134 (maybe with 10% . I'll put the relay on for that. What is a T/C?4. Whenever its exposed to the environment, it changes to a gas. I mean, really a lot. The MB chart shows 360 psi with R12 in some conditions. Or is there always room for improvement, the more the merrier. Though you can purchase 12 or 16 ounce cans of R134a from local retailers it is very difficult to measure out the correct amount into your system. 1) Warm Air From Vents. A/C R12 to R134a Conversion Success | IH8MUD Forum This leads me to labor over every small decision. Do I leave the orignal condensor in, etc?Thanks. After the system has been tested out it should be checked for leaks. If you have a perfectly operating system using R12 you do not have to drop what you are doing and convert to R134a. Hmmmm. . 3 ounces? The pressure at low temperatures is nearly the same between 12 and 134a. difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve When ever possible you should ask the technician to note the same information on your repair bill and keep a copy in your glove box for future reference. He started writing automotive articles to share his garage experience with car enthusiasts and armature mechanics. R1234yf is more environmentally friendly and has a global warming potential of 4. I think so. R12 and R134 are of different chemistry. The original rubber a/c hose lines in your car will leak out R12 through the hoses lining. This would become an expensive investment for a repair or service station to have unique dedicated equipment for every type of alternative refrigerant. What effect would it have on performance, if any?At the moment, the ac is acting up - will work fine for about 15 minutes and then slowly the vent temperatures rise until the compressor switches off. You'll get marginally better performance out of the change as the expansion valve is matches the refrigerant characteristics. Please enter a password for your user account. This is not to say that one of these small retro-fit kits cant be used, however to be used wisely. I remember I had the wrong seals and it leaked some oil, so I put some more in.Bohica - I tested the pressures. This allows the refrigerant in the condenser to be void of oil particles. This is due to many facts: R134a refrigerant is about 10% less efficient in moving heat than R12! Expansion valves are an active device, they regulate the flow of refrigerant to the evaporator depending on evaporator temperature. If your car does not have a high pressure cut-out switch in the AC system then youll need to have one installed (call us if you need help). R12 is heavier than R134a and has smaller molecules. I have just bought gauges. difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve The problem with using an approved alternative refrigerants other than R134a is that when the system is serviced it requires certain types of fittings, labels and dedicated equipment. It does not "pool" to any degree in a large amount anywhere. This chart has a column of ambient (outside) air temperatures on one side and a corresponding range of high side pressures on the other side. At 40, it is 35psi, which is a difference of 8.9psi. The larger line at the expansion valve is the suction line. There are two hoses listed, R-12 64-53-1-377-821 for $72.50, and R-134a 64-53-8-391-051 fro $262.50. It is also used in automotive car conditioning and the plastic industry. 05-25-2017 02:14 AM. Kommentare . They might say for instance, add 3-4 oz of oil to the compressor, 1 oz of oil for when you replace a drier, 2 oz oil for the evaporator and so on. Most of all the differences gravitate to longevity, functionality, and safety. If your a/c system is empty/low on refrigerant, if your system has a leak or if you need to open the system, then now is the time to decide which refrigerant you want to use. Miscibility with oil: R12 can be mixed with the compressor oil no matter the operating condition. These two refrigerants are the older types and are not used in newer refrigeration and air conditioning systems. Existing technology: R134a has been in use in the refrigeration industry for very many years, and theres so much information about the safe use of the product. I'm curiousSo there is work to do, ie performance should be able to be improved. At this time you can still find R12, but, because it is no longer produced, availability is limited to current inventories and the price per pound is greater than R134a. If you are replacing other system components, such as condensers, driers or hoses, you may need to add more a/c refrigerant oil to the system. Autor de l'entrada Per ; Data de l'entrada calexico west port of entry hours; 12 month libor rate 2021 a difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve a difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve It is a known suspect that lets heat into the heat exchanger/core even when off because the mono-valve is on the exit side of the heater core. A slow loss of cooling at city speeds is usually related to condensor capacity & airflow issues.You could improve the cooling capacity by replacing the condensor with a high effeciency parallel flow unit. To bless the system the technician should attach a R134a sticker somewhere in the engine compartment to note the car is using R134a. If 50 degrees across the cond. Most importantly, the oil used in the plant must always be compatible with the refrigerant used. That is a good thing. But, if your old compressor has lock-up or if your current expansion valve is not functional it would wise to replace the expansion valve with a valve designed for R134a. Since then, the industry standard has been R134a, which is an efficient replacement. -------------------------Just another brick in the wallHad a little mule I fed him castor oil and every time he jumped the fence he fertilized the soil, The older expansion valves were filled with the refrigerant they were used with, the replacement valves (today) are filled with a different chemical to work with both refrigerants..Hope this helps-------------------------ChickEmail: Chick---------------------------------------------Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose, I believe the optimum supercool setting will vary slightly between an expansion valve for an R12, as compared to R134a, system. So, instead of using R12, other better options include R401b, R134a, R401a, etc. Look at where the lines will end up. BTW, I use a stick thermo in the vents and the laser on the condenser. The sticker typically has a place to note the amount of refrigerant used, the type of oil and amount of oil, the technicians sign off or name and the date of the conversion. Figure 2 shows the different phases and pressures the refrigerant . A Lot of the fins are bent, especially at the top. Expansion Valve. and an evaporator core and expansion valve that are optimized for R134a . The flammables have hydrocarbons. 5) A/C System Failure. Hence, the effect of R12 on global warming is up to 10,000 times higher than carbon dioxide. Quick View. The newer valves and switches will work with both refrigerants. These efforts to balance the system can not be realized if there are problems within the a/c system, such as: poor performing compressor, dirty condenser or poor air flow through the condenser, malfunctioning expansion valve, water or air in the system, improperly operating fresh air or heat input in the climate-air mixing system. It's not just the poor performance - the cooling just stops working after a while. It's helluva humid and hot here in north florida, and I drive around all day for my job. The Main change in the system is the expansion valve. It is made up of carbon, hydrogen, and fluorine. The primary function of the design engineer is to make things difficult for the fabricator and impossible for the serviceman. By using a qualified a/c shop with the proper equipment you odds are in your favor of having the job done correctly the first time. For instance at 25 F the pressure of R-12 is 24.6 PSI and the pressure of R-134a is 22.1 PSI. As per their results . Also, they are mostly used in refrigeration and automotive air conditioning systems. Is there a difference in the expansion valve for R12 as opposed to R-134a? Temp switch works the aux fan. I am ordering new parts, and planning to convert my system to R-134a. To ensure the right charge, you must fill the new system with between 75 and 85% of the factory-set capacity for optimal cooling. The aux fan didn't switch on though and I didn't check the high side temperature. You do not want to exceed the systems high side recommendations. As illustrated in the chart below, the curves below run together nearly throughout the curve, only slightly breaking paths at around 250 psig/150 degrees and above Flammability/Safety R-1234yf has been designated as MILDLY flammable. Very interesting! The major reason for the replacement of R12 with R134a was to curb future greenhouse effects. And, unfortunately a small high side pressure gauge on a short hose. With the knowledge of the differences, youll be able to draw a comparison between R12 vs R134a efficiency. . of refrigerant insulation tape. link to How to cut off a Catalytic Converter. However, theyre still used in older plants, systems, and the automotive industry. It will work and there will be very little, in any difference in performance.As Chick stated, the difference is only the gas used in the sensor tube. I've got a ball valve I'm going to put in the coolant line before the coolant goes through the firewall to the core. Generally you follow the refrigerant flow moving from connection to connection, component to component, and you sniff the a/c vents to check for evaporator leaks as well. bokoen1 hoi4 the great purge / meryl and maks dancing with the stars / difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve. Do a pre-inspection and then Evacuate (vacuum down) the system, the longer the evacuation the better but there is a point of diminishing return, 2-3 hours is generally very good. R12 to 134A conversion. | Allpar Forums It is made up of carbon, hydrogen, and fluorine. in /nfs/c05/h04/mnt/113983/domains/toragrafix.com/html/wp-content . CONCLUSIONS The differences in the theoretical C.O.P.H calculated for R12 and R134a are consistent with values quoted in the literature. At the time I thought nothing of it, but now I am thinking maybe that is contributing to the system not working as well as it could. I'm thinking of jumping the temp switch and leaving the fan on to see how it does. I dont know why the cost difference between compressors is so huge, though. It is a haloalkane and hydrofluorocarbon (HFC) refrigerant that has thermodynamic properties, potential global warming for one hundred years, and insignificant ozone depletion. Disconnect the two hose lines to the compressor, protect the ends from getting dirty. Below are the major differences between R134a and R12: The chemical composition of R12 and R134a differ. R-12 expansion valves can be re-used, but will not be as efficient as R-134a specific ones because of the slightly different pressure specs of R-12 vs. R-134a. You can spend long evenings reading about the differences between the two refrigerants. Remove the old mineral oil from the compressor by turning it upside down, side to side, and turn the front hub on the clutch assembly. If the system was upgraded by a professional it should have an upgrade sticker. difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve Still, I have some simple green, so may as well give it a go. Then again, there are two different expansion valves. The R134a compressor has a 1/8" step in on the high side port. R134a is otherwise called 1,1,1,2 Tetrafluoroethane, Florasol 134a, Freon 134a, Norflurane (INN) or HFC 134a. With R12 you use to check to see if the site glass was full, if it had bubbles it meant you had a low charge. By after changing just about everything, he got what was termed, satisfactory cooling. by | Jun 21, 2022 | what is the most accurate latin translator | burlington iowa arrests | Jun 21, 2022 | what is the most accurate latin translator | burlington iowa arrests There are significant differences between R12, R134a, and R513A, which must be considered when handling, processing, applying, or retrofitting with these refrigerants. With new R12 no longer being manufactured, the market price soared to $100/pound. In a comparison between R12 vs R134a vs R1234yf, R1234yf will pass as the best refrigerant. At 2000rpm, windows open, highest fan, hi pressure stabilized at 225 psi, low 25psi.Ambient 81F, vent 61F. In cases such as this, the required capacity value of the expansion valve with R134a is reduced by 30% (correction factor 1.42). You do not however need to replace all the o-rings or seals for a simple conversion, it is simply a logical thing to do when and if the time comes to work or replace certain components because of age issues. Tamb oferim en VOSC el contingut daquestes sries que no es troba doblat, com les temporades deDoctor Who de la 7 en endavant,les OVA i els especials de One Piece i molt ms. In short, NO! There are other refrigerants: some of which may work, some of which dont work, some of which will destroy your a/c system and some of which are dangerous. The pressure at low temperatures is nearly the same between 12 and 134a.
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